Gary James' Interview With The Author Of
The Velvet Mafia: The Gay Men Who Ran
The Swinging Sixties
Darryl W. Bullock



It's not often that a book title will reveal the book's content. But such is the case with Darryl W. Bullock, author of The Velvet Mafia: The Gay Men Who Ran The Swinging Sixties. (Omnibus Press)

And so, we present an interview with author Darryl W. Bullock.

Q - Darryl, to my knowledge this is the only book of its kind to deal with this subject matter. Would I be correct about that?

A - If you're talking about one that kind of brings together all of these gay influences from the 1960s into one story, then yes.

Q - Would "The Velvet Mafia" title of your book refer to the suit jackets these men wore? In the U.S. we would call them Chesterfield jackets.

A - No. It kind of refers to the idea that they were a powerful group of gay men who were working together and quite often in the very pejorative sense that was referred to as either "The Pink Mafia" or something like that. For many, many years it's been suggested that gay men in the music and entertainment industry working together were kind of called "The Pink Mafia." The Velvet Mafia comes from that. It's got nothing to do with what they were wearing. It's about them kind of clandestinely working together behind the scenes in a very secretive way. It's really got nothing to do with clothing.

Q - I thought it was a reference to that because Brian Epstein wore that type of suit jacket.

A - Oh yes, he did. It was a very popular, and still is to this day, a very popular style in British men's clothing. But it doesn't come from (that). It's a pejorative term you'd call a cabal of gay men.

Q - What are people who were in the music business in the 1960s saying about your book? Has anyone contacted you?

A - The feedback has been incredibly positive and surprising, hearing from a number of people who, obviously I interviewed a number of people for the book, but also hearing from other people who were involved in the industry at that time or later have absolutely loved it. I know that Zeppelin's Jimmy Page is a big fan of the book. I know that Marc Almond, obviously that's a generation later, is a big fan of the book. I know of Andy Partridge of XTG, again later, but a huge fan of that period, loves the book. It's done very well. It's always a big surprise when people tell you they like your work. You don't do it for kudos. You do it because you have to do it. I don't write expecting people to necessarily say, "I love your work." (laughs) It's always nice, but that's not why you do it. You do it because you have to get this story out. You have this compunction to do it. And so it's thrilling for me to have so many people say, "I love your book," "I like your book." I've met people on the back of it from that period who have run into me and said, "I thought it was great. I was there at that time. I remember these people." Yes, you're right. It's lovely.

Q - I have to put this out, the men you have in your book were all involved in the British music business.

A - Yes. I didn't look at the American industry at that time because I am a gay man living in Britain. That kind of made sense for me to write about something I knew about.

Q - Were there any "straight" men in the music business in England in the 1960s?

A - Oh, yes, loads. The majority of men in the industry would have been "straight", would have been heterosexual. The majority of the women in the industry were heterosexual, but because of the time and because of the law at the time in this country (England), like in the States, it was illegal to be homosexual. In the States you have different laws for different states. We have a countrywide law that outlawed homosexuality until 1967. So, it was significant for me that there were a bunch of people working together before this time and forming their own Social Network. And that's really what the book is about. It's about how these guys banded together to provide a support network in a time when it was completely illegal to be homosexual.

Q - Was it just a coincidence that these men you write about became personal managers, promoters and agents? At the end of the day, wasn't it really all about the bottom line that counted?

A - You're right there, but I don't think it was a coincidence. I think traditionally gay men have been pulled to the Arts. Working within the Arts kind of provides a certain amount of camouflage. You can get away with a bit before. You can be a bit more open about yourself. It's expected within music or theatre that you can be a little more theatrical, a little more camp. You can get away with a little bit more. You don't have to be sort of a stuffed shirt about things. I think a lot of gay men I write about in this book were drawn to that, were drawn to Arts. Most of them were failed artists themselves. They either wanted to be actors or singers or they wanted to work in that field. It wasn't right for them, so the next and most obvious thing for them to do was to find another way to work in that field. And so, working as an Artist Manager or a clothing designer or playwright or producer was a really obvious way for them to still be in that society, still be in that artistic field, but not necessarily have a major creative role when you think about something like songwriting.

Q - Of all the people in your book, I'd like to talk about Brian Epstein.

A - Sure.

Q - Before The Beatles hit in the U.S. and probably before that, people were saying that Brian Epstein just got lucky. I say he worked very hard to make that luck happen. Every record company in Britain turned him down. He could've thrown his hands up in the air and gone back to The Beatles and said, "I'm sorry guys. It just didn't work out." But he didn't do that. The world owes Brian Epstein a debt of gratitude. He is the unsung hero in The Beatles's story.

A - I think that's absolutely true. Brian was an incredibly honorable person. Once Brian signed the band and said, "I'm going to get you a contract," he was dogged in his determination to make sure they got signed. He was their absolute best advocate. He was the best possible choice for them. I don't think The Beatles would have been as big as they were without Brian in their corner. I think John and Paul would have succeeded. I don't think there's any doubts. They were so unbelievably talented that they had to succeed at some level, but I think they needed Brian and Brian desperately needed them. Brian really wanted to get into the Arts Industry and couldn't find a way in. He talked about becoming an actor, being a designer. It wasn't happening for him, but managing a band was his inroad into that and he was determined that was going to work for him, but he was also absolutely determined that it would work for them. He was never going to let the band down. He was just strait ahead, "This will happen, I will make it happen." He was so essential to the story.

Q - The Beatles that I saw on Ed Sullivan were not The Beatles Brian Epstein saw at The Cavern. And when he saw them he made the statement, "These guys are going to be bigger than Elvis." In your research did you discover what would have led Brian Epstein to make such a statement? I ask only because he's the only manager in the history of Rock 'n' Roll to be right.

A - The people that I spoke to, and I spoke to people who worked for NEMS and are still around today, some of them thought Brian saw something in them that none of them did. I talked to musician Mike Berry, who was around at the time and played The Cavern and saw the band. No musicians outside of Liverpool thought The Beatles were going to amount to anything. Groups coming up from London to play around there thought they were fly-by-night, they won't happen. This won't work. This is not sophisticated enough for London audiences. But, Brian saw something completely different. Brian saw their energy. He saw how audiences were excited by them. They wrote their own material, which was incredibly different. Most of the bands playing at that time did nothing but "cover" versions. So, the fact that they were writing 50% of their own material was pretty exciting. He saw these four guy from around the corner, onstage, having a laugh, having a joke, messing about, not being very tidy, eating, spitting, drinking on stage, But, he appreciated the excitement they generated and he wanted to find a way to get that over to other people outside of The Cavern, outside of the Litherland Hall, and everywhere else they were playing. It was a fortuitous meeting. Brian needed to find someone who could help him into the Arts field. They needed someone like Brian who was determined to make it happen. They were an exciting band. Brian saw them after they had spent quite a bit of time in Hamburg. So, he saw them kind of at their best. But they were really tight, a well-honed, sharp band.

Q - I can't think of another high profile manager who could have managed The Beatles, can you? Certainly not Colonel Tom Parker or Albert Grossman. Brian Epstein was the perfect fit.

A - Yeah, absolutely. You're talking about American managers there. They had a very different style. Although there were a lot of British managers who saw how successful Tom Parker was and they tried to model themselves on him. But, the British scene is very different than the American scene. The management style is very different. Brian wasn't like the Colonel. The Colonel wanted 50% of everything. "You will do as you"re told. I'm not standing for any crap from you, Elvis," and Elvis kow-towed and did it. The Beatles were never going to do that. The Beatles were their own band. They were their own people. They were quite unruly, and quite hard-headed about what they would and wouldn't do. So, they needed someone like Brian who understood that and would cajole them into dong something rather than demand they did things, who could express to them how doing this show or dressing in this way or taking a bow after this song would make them more presentable and therefore end up making them more money. In the day, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Pete Best and Ringo Starr were not idiots. They wanted to be famous and they were prepared to listen to someone who had an idea about what to do. When Brian took John to see The Shadows, he said, "Look at the way they dress. Look at the matching suits, look at the way they bow after all their songs. That's what you should be doing." John listened. John was no fool. John wanted to be famous.

Q - And what's interesting is the public knew the names of the managers of both Elvis and The Beatles. That's quite remarkable when you think about it, isn't it?

A - I think it is, but it's such an early time. Rock 'n' Roll didn't really happen over here (England) until 1956. The first manager, who was Larry Parnes, was one of the main characters of my book, he almost immediately became a celebrity in his own right. And so, it stood to reason I guess that people who followed in his footsteps like Brian Epstein would become famous as well. I think the big difference with The Beatles is they spoke about him a lot. They talked about Brian a lot. They gave credit where credit is due. There's the famous line when they were all awarded the M.B.E. (Members of the British Empire), it was Paul who said, It stands for Mr. Brian Epstein." They were very aware of his importance to them. They very much wanted to give credit where credit is due.

Q - Brian had a brother Clive and I know he's dead. Brian's mother Queenie is dead. Are there any relatives of Brian who are still around today?

A - Well, Brian didn't have any kids. Clive married and had children, so his children and grandchildren would be around. I didn't talk to any of them for this book because they wouldn't have known Brian and it's kind of pointless. For the book I wanted to interview people who were part of that scene at the time who could give me first hand stories of what happened. So, it would be pointless of me talking to Brian's great nephew, because Brian's great nephew never met him. But I'm pretty sure that Clive had kids and his children and grandchildren would still be around.

Q - How about Clive's wife, is she still around?

A - I don't know.

Q - Did you meet some of the people you write about in your book, or are they all gone?

A - No. There are some people I met. Most of the main characters in the book, Larry Parnes, Brian Epstein are no longer here. So, the main five or six characters are no longer around. But, several of their work colleagues, their friends and their acquaintances and their acts, musicians, I did talk to.

Q - I was surprised to read that The Beatles were still playing The Cavern as late as August, 1963. Six months later they were on The Ed Sullivan Show. That's an incredible jump!

A - Again, because Brian was such an honorable guy, The Beatles had been pre-booked to play a lot of gigs at The Cavern, so he kept those bookings even though he could have demanded more money. He could have said, "We're not doing it anymore," and pulled out. He was honorable. He honored those twenty Pound, thirty Pound, forty Pound bookings when they were commanding hundreds, if not thousands of Pounds a night. He was a very, very honorable guy. Everybody I talked to that knew Brian has said the same thing to me. Brian, for all of his faults, especially his faults later in life when he was very heavily influenced by the amount of drugs he was taking, was honest and trustworthy and utterly reliable. He would not let you down. When Brian made a mistake, he made up for it. Everybody knows about The Beatles losing so much money over the merchandise deal in the States. When Brian realized what a bad deal had been made, he did everything he could to extricate them from that. He paid for the lawyers out of his own pocket. The Beatles didn't pay for that. He did personally and he put it right. It took awhile, but within a year or so they'd gone from being 10% to being 50%. People forget this stuff. They look at the negatives of Brian's life so often. They ignore the fact or forget the fact or they just don't know the facts that when he made a mistake he put it right. He did everything he possibly could so the band who he loved would not be out of pocket, they would not lose face.

Q - Brian let David Jacobs, his lawyer make that deal for merchandising, who thought it was beneath him to be handling t-shirt deals. And then The Beatles lost money. However, t-shirts were given away to teenagers waiting for The Beatles to land at the airport. So, when The Beatles arrived in New York City there were 5,000 kids to greet them. What great publicity that was to have screaming teenagers come out to see a band they hadn't yet seen perform.

A - Yeah. Saying David Jacobs thought it was beneath him, I don't think that's necessarily true. It's just that nobody knew what to do. This is a very new field. You gotta remember, Britain at the time, and it's a bit of a different time than what's going on in the States; in Britain we hadn't really had major merchandising of a band before then. People like Tommy Steele, who was a very early Rock 'n' Roller over here, about as much as they had were like books and plastic guitars. There wasn't really much else. People weren't buying t-shirts and badges and posters and everything else, and dolls and plates and cups, and Beatles record players, because it just didn't exist. So when Brian and David Jacobs were trying to deal with this, they really didn't know what to do. So, David Jacobs went into his office to talk to some people he knew who he thought might know, some youngsters, and get an idea on this. I think David, through his ignorance of facts, was kind of exploited. I don't think he did it because it was beneath him. I think it's basically he didn't know what he was doing. He wasn't that kind of a lawyer. He wasn't a lawyer who dealt with rights for merchandising because nobody had dealt with rights for merchandising before.

Q - Something else Brian Epstein changed that people now take as common place is when an act appears, it's "In Concert". That was a term that was used for Classical musicians, not Rock 'n' Roll acts. Brian Epstein referred to The Beatles "In Concert".

A - I think it goes back to Brian's own experience when he was trained to be an actor and obviously later when he took over ownership of the Saville Theatre. He very much saw the presentation of the band in a theatrical way. He'd seen the Larry Parnes package shows, which were very much based on the U.S. tours with Buddy Holly and The Big Bopper. He saw these happen and I guess he wanted to look a bit more professional than that, although they end up going the same way with a bunch of screaming kids in the theatre. But, he definitely wanted to make The Beatles and all of the NEMS acts look more professional and authoritative, I guess.

© Gary James. All rights reserved.



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